Topic: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

First off....OUCH!!! I'm glad that beast didn't get a hold of my leg.

Rogan had a lot to say about how long Palhares held onto that leg. I think it was a bit long....not Babalu choking ppl out long..but borderline justified. He grabbed that leg and started yanking and Drwal started tapping almost immediately. Palhares didn't let go after the tap....he's not supposed to. He waited for the ref to stop the fight. Now did he hold on too long after the ref intervened? Keeping in mind he's in the heat of the moment and all....? Hard to say 100% for me, im just glad i wasn't on the wrong end of that leg lock. I just feel Rogan made it seem more blatant and intentional that it really was....he counted a quick 5 seconds during a slowed down replay....   thoughts?

Mediocrity Sucks

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

Well Palhares ended up getting suspended by the Athletic commission for 90 days because of holding the submission on too long.  Granted it wasn't as long as Babalu and the ref wasn't tugging on him like Babalu but Palhares is a leg lock/heel hook specialist and I would find it hard to believe that he didn't know he was doing damage.  I haven't really seen anyone tap out, have the submission let go, and then keep fighting since Ken Shamrock back in the day, lots of fighters let go of submissions before the ref comes in once they get the tap.  However, I really don't think Palhares was looking to prove a point or anything with his heel hook, it's just a really dangerous submission, lots of guys get injuries from them even if the hold is removed quickly since it's hard to know just how much trouble you're in until it's too late.

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

Funny how we all wanted GSP to break Hardy's arm, and yet Palhares is viewed by many as going to far with his sub.   lol

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-FuriousG-

"Holy shit! I wanna go polar bear on that damn penguin..." -Ploppyseed-

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

FuriousG wrote:

Funny how we all wanted GSP to break Hardy's arm, and yet Palhares is viewed by many as going to far with his sub.   lol

Yeah but if Hardy would have started to tap right when GSP locked in either sub we would all be freaking out if he still broke his arm.

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Sweep the leg... Do you have a Problem with that!

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

Oh I know they were different situations completely, I just found it somewhat funny that one guy went too far and another didn't go far enough and everyone (myself included) is kinda opposed to both outcomes.

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-FuriousG-

"Holy shit! I wanna go polar bear on that damn penguin..." -Ploppyseed-

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

I don't think he did anything wrong. Its just like when a fighter is GnPing another, they wil often hit  couple times after the guy is KO'd. Its the refs job to stop the fight, the fighers should keep going until the ref jumps in.

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

I think Palhares absolutely should hold on to the submission until the ref stops the fight.  The only thing I think Palhares should have done is looked up when he felt the tap.  That way he's ready to release as soon as he feels the ref's hands on him.

Rogan made it out to be a long time.  I think if you put a stop watch on it it would actually be less than a half second after the ref got there (not the tap - the ref stoppage).  He's got no business releasing the hold before then.

The worst ever case of an early submission release happened in UFC 37... Matt Lindland vs Murilo Bustamante.  Bustamante had an armbar fully locked in during the first round.  As soon as it happened, Big John jumped in actually put his hands on Murilo to pull him off.  Murilo released the hold... Lindland complained that he never tapped and Big John had to call a timeout to explain that he didn't mean to stop it.  Lucky Bustamante submitted him again in the 2nd, so it worked out fine...  The lesson there is, don't release the hold until you're sure the ref is stopping the fight.

Didn't C.B. Dollaway also get away with a pseudo-tap once?  He started tapping, guy released and then C.B. kept fighting?

Also, I'm pretty sure 90 days suspension is only window dressing.  These guys rarely fight more than 4 times a year.

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

I actually didnt think that there was anything wrong with it until Rogan started making such a fuss about it, then I saw the replay but it didnt look like he did it on purpose it was like he saw the tap and he didnt pay much attention to it he just waited until the ref stepped it.

I actually like Palhares in my opinion that was a sick sub, he looks freakishly strong with a good chin (remember the Hendo fight), the biggest holes that I c on this guy is definitely his striking, but more than anything his gas tank, if he can at least improve his cardio I think it should be interesting seeing him escalate the ranks of the UFC.

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

Dolloway has tried multiple times to pseudo tap, I think he did it to Sodollah on the show and on the finale, and one other guy that I remember...Mezenzio or something

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-FuriousG-

"Holy shit! I wanna go polar bear on that damn penguin..." -Ploppyseed-

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

Unless you know a thing or two about Jiu Jitsu, you won't know why this is a huge problem.  Babalu locked on a choke and choked him out.  Big deal, he woke up and walked out of the octagon.  Luckily Drawl was as lucky.  Heel hooks are the most dangerous submission in grappling.  Palhares knew that.  That's why they are illegal in most grappling tournaments. I think it's crap if you're going to try to defend this guy when he could have ended Drawl's career.  His ankle, knee, and hip could be jacked from this.  He walked away but I think that was a dick and lame move by Palhares.  The guy screams in pain and taps, and Palhares is waiting for the ref to stop it?  Doesn't make much sense.

“I played his game for almost three rounds, He played my game for two minutes and I won the fight.”

-Rodrigo Nogueira

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

I was actually already calling Palharres an asshole out loud to the TV before Rogan ever said a word.
The guy was frantically tapping, screaming, and flailing like... well, like his leg being slowly broken.
Maybe technically he has the right to crank on that leg as hard as he possibly can and attempt to destroy it until the ref physically pulls him off, but did he have to? No. Absolutely not!

As a man and as a respectful athlete, he failed miserably in this case.
But hey, at least he got to possibly ruin the career of a fellow mixed martial artist, so he can still hold his head high!

Good job man!!   roll

Hit me again tube sock, let's go!!

Nick Diaz| Chuck Liddell| Anderson Silva| Nate Diaz| Mayhem Miller| Dan Hardy| Mike Swick| Carlos Condit| Frank Mir| Cowboy Cerrone

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

Triggerman99 wrote:

I was actually already calling Palharres an asshole out loud to the TV before Rogan ever said a word.
The guy was frantically tapping, screaming, and flailing like... well, like his leg being slowly broken.
Maybe technically he has the right to crank on that leg as hard as he possibly can and attempt to destroy it until the ref physically pulls him off, but did he have to? No. Absolutely not!

As a man and as a respectful athlete, he failed miserably in this case.
But hey, at least he got to possibly ruin the career of a fellow mixed martial artist, so he can still hold his head high!

Good job man!!   roll

Exactly.

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Sweep the leg... Do you have a Problem with that!

RIP Jeff / Ploppyseed 1973-2009 we will miss you!

Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

Tukh wrote:

I think Palhares absolutely should hold on to the submission until the ref stops the fight.  The only thing I think Palhares should have done is looked up when he felt the tap.  That way he's ready to release as soon as he feels the ref's hands on him.

Rogan made it out to be a long time.  I think if you put a stop watch on it it would actually be less than a half second after the ref got there (not the tap - the ref stoppage).  He's got no business releasing the hold before then.

The worst ever case of an early submission release happened in UFC 37... Matt Lindland vs Murilo Bustamante.  Bustamante had an armbar fully locked in during the first round.  As soon as it happened, Big John jumped in actually put his hands on Murilo to pull him off.  Murilo released the hold... Lindland complained that he never tapped and Big John had to call a timeout to explain that he didn't mean to stop it.  Lucky Bustamante submitted him again in the 2nd, so it worked out fine...  The lesson there is, don't release the hold until you're sure the ref is stopping the fight.

Didn't C.B. Dollaway also get away with a pseudo-tap once?  He started tapping, guy released and then C.B. kept fighting?

Also, I'm pretty sure 90 days suspension is only window dressing.  These guys rarely fight more than 4 times a year.

There was no pseudo tapping going on in this situation though, he visibly tapped about 6 or 7 times on the arm and leg while screaming.  Drawl wasn't going to stand up and protest and claim he hadn't tapped in this situation.  Palhares is a heel hook machine and I couldn't imagine he didn't know he was completely fucking that guys leg up while getting tapped on like crazy.

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

arnt you supposed to hold the sub until the ref actually steps in,   ive seen guys tap and the hold is let go and the ref doesnt see it and the fight continues......Im not sayin the hold was justified considering how badly the dude was screaming,  the reffing all night was atrocious.

This cannot be compared to Babalu,  he flat out said I taught him a lesson....haha

Last edited by ChokingVictim (2010-03-29 20:28:41)

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Bas / Dos Santos / Rua / Fedor / Nogs / Hendo / Babalu / Huerta / Mousasi / Bones / Arlovski / Guida

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

ChokingVictim wrote:

arnt you supposed to hold the sub until the ref actually steps in,   ive seen guys tap and the hold is let go and the ref doesnt see it and the fight continues......Im not sayin the hold was justified considering how badly the dude was screaming,  the reffing all night was atrocious.

This cannot be compared to Babalu,  he flat out said I taught him a lesson....haha

Don't know about this one.  I go back and forth.
It was pretty close to being a pretty shitty move on Palhares.  I think when the ref steps in and makes contact, the fighter should stop everything immediately.  This includes a ground and pound where sometimes fighters seem to sneak in that extra punch.
Maybe it was too loud and Palhares didn't hear the ref right away or he didn't feel the tap since wasn't it on the mat?  Also, Palhares was straining to really get the submission and eyes may have even been closed.

A good friend of mine lost a fight to Mishima as he assumed the fight was over.  Just too much training submissions in the gym where you seem to let go right away when you know you have the sub locked in.  Then my buddy got subbed himself.

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

ChokingVictim wrote:

arnt you supposed to hold the sub until the ref actually steps in,   ive seen guys tap and the hold is let go and the ref doesnt see it and the fight continues......Im not sayin the hold was justified considering how badly the dude was screaming,  the reffing all night was atrocious.

This cannot be compared to Babalu,  he flat out said I taught him a lesson....haha

But that's exactly what Ruthio just said; Drwal was not by any stretch of the imagination going to jump up and say he didn't tap. He was blatantly and frantically tapping because he knew he was in big trouble and could have his knee destroyed. Unfortunately for him, Palharres didn't really seem to care if he fucked up Drwal's knee.

I don't see how this could be the ref's fault. He was a little far away, but the sub attempt came so fast that he couldn't have known it was gonna end right then and there, so he was, at worst, forgivably out of position.
I know someone is gonna say that this is MMA and what do you expect? These guys fight for a living, they know the risk! and that may be true. But they also know that when they are caught in a bad spot, they have the option to tap out and take the loss without suffering a possibly career-ending injury.
Too bad for Drwal he wasn't given that respect from his opponent, and he may have suffered a horrible injury anyway.

Hit me again tube sock, let's go!!

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

Yeh i dunno, the only person who knows is Palhares...

Hes such a seasoned BJJ guy with no history of stuff like this,  I seriously doubt his intentions were to destroy this guys knee, that was also a pretty weird position for a heel hook......who knows though.

Last edited by ChokingVictim (2010-03-29 20:48:22)

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Bas / Dos Santos / Rua / Fedor / Nogs / Hendo / Babalu / Huerta / Mousasi / Bones / Arlovski / Guida

The Flu goes to a doctor to get a Fedor shot

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

Oh, I definitely don't think Palhares had the intention of trying to destroy Drwal's knee, not consciously at least. But I do blame him for negligence and/or lack of respect.

He as a competitor has to have the presence of mind to make a judgement call on his own; to know that the fight is over. Yes, it's ultimately the ref's job, but in my eyes you're either an asshole or a fucking idiot if you hold a submission (especially that submission) for that long after a guy has tapped, and then hide behind the excuse of awaiting the ref's call.
It's a little different with KO/TKOs because it's often difficult to tell the exact point that the other guy is definitely out, and not just dazed. An extra, unnecessary punch is a little more forgivable.
A guy doesn't tap unless he is outright conceding defeat. Fight over.
If for no other reason, the suspension should serve the purpose of giving him some time to think about whether or not it was really worth it to keep cranking on that leg, when he and everyone else knew the fight was over.

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

this is a sport, not war. they are not fighting for their life and should have enough self control to stop when the guy is out or is screaming and tapping like a madman.

thats why my favourite guys will be the ones that have control at all times and dont lose it no matter what the situation.

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

There's a difference between holding a submission and continuing to crank it.  He CLEARLY had it tight, and could have STOPPED TWISTING and STILL would have had enough pressure on the joint where Drwal would have KEPT TAPPING and not been able to get out.

Instead, he KEPT TWISTING. 

That's just wrong. Anyone who's ever been on either end of and ankle lock like that knows when you start tapping, that's it, and even a LITTLE bit more of a tweak means SERIOUS injury. 

That was TOTALLY uncalled for.

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"You're like an expert swimmer who never got in a pool"

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

Paul Harris seemed pretty apologetic after the fight, maybe he just got carried away? At any rate, the commie has it right - he's a professional and should have enough control to stop when it's appropriate.

Then again, I don't speak Portuguese so maybe it was just Bustamante that was apologizing for him. For all I know, Palhares could have said he wished he twisted harder and wanted to cripple Drawl  smile

Long Live Team Human Tetris!

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Re: Palhares/Drawl stoppage (Spoilers)**

Absolutely disgusting from Palhares, he should be suspended and fined for what he did... Blatant disrespect and regardless of intent it is extremely bad form.

Robert

If I tell you I'm good, you would probably think I'm boasting, If I tell you I'm no good, You know I'm lying. - Bruce Lee

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